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	<title>Comments on: Let the Personal Attacks Continue</title>
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	<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/</link>
	<description>The National Association of Manufacturers Premier Manufacturing Blog</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 06:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Max German</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13136</link>
		<dc:creator>Max German</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13136</guid>
		<description>And let the personal attacks continue...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let the personal attacks continue&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Max German</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13135</link>
		<dc:creator>Max German</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13135</guid>
		<description>Thank you James for your comments.  I agree, it’s really really shameful that real people are suffering needlessly every day as a result of neglect by the government of Ecuador and Petroecuador. It is also shameful that after all these years Petroecuador hasn’t remediated the sites it is responsible for, and the government of Ecuador hasn’t provided medical care for affected people. But for the supporters of the plaintiffs, this is just a rhetorical game they play on the internet as the government of Ecuador sits idly by while kids are dying from cancer who might otherwise have lived normal, healthy lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you James for your comments.  I agree, it’s really really shameful that real people are suffering needlessly every day as a result of neglect by the government of Ecuador and Petroecuador. It is also shameful that after all these years Petroecuador hasn’t remediated the sites it is responsible for, and the government of Ecuador hasn’t provided medical care for affected people. But for the supporters of the plaintiffs, this is just a rhetorical game they play on the internet as the government of Ecuador sits idly by while kids are dying from cancer who might otherwise have lived normal, healthy lives.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13132</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13132</guid>
		<description>@Max: Your response is just Chevron's assertions cut ad pasted. Why are you so certain that what they say is the absolute truth? Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to believe independent court-appointed experts who actually spent a great deal of time and energy testing and verifying the facts on the ground at each site than one party's obviously self-interested assertions?

Of course it turns out that independent experts who appraise the situation thoroughly disagree with Chevron's self-interested assertions, so I guess that would be a bit inconvenient for an unquestioning Chevron booster to admit.

What's really shameful about your behavior is that real people are suffering needlessly every day as a result. In all of these years that Chevron has been dragging this case out the sites have not been remediated and medical care for affected people has not been provided. This is not some rhetorical game you play on the internet - this is kids dying from cancer who might otherwise have lived normal, healthy lives.

Shame on you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Max: Your response is just Chevron&#8217;s assertions cut ad pasted. Why are you so certain that what they say is the absolute truth? Wouldn&#8217;t it be much more reasonable to believe independent court-appointed experts who actually spent a great deal of time and energy testing and verifying the facts on the ground at each site than one party&#8217;s obviously self-interested assertions?</p>
<p>Of course it turns out that independent experts who appraise the situation thoroughly disagree with Chevron&#8217;s self-interested assertions, so I guess that would be a bit inconvenient for an unquestioning Chevron booster to admit.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s really shameful about your behavior is that real people are suffering needlessly every day as a result. In all of these years that Chevron has been dragging this case out the sites have not been remediated and medical care for affected people has not been provided. This is not some rhetorical game you play on the internet - this is kids dying from cancer who might otherwise have lived normal, healthy lives.</p>
<p>Shame on you.</p>
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		<title>By: Max German</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13129</link>
		<dc:creator>Max German</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13129</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments on my blog Joseph.  Here is a copy of my response:
 
Texaco operated in line with the standards of the day. Although Texaco was the operator, they were still the minority partner in the consortium. All consortium decisions including system construction decisions were made in conjunction with the majority partner state-run Petroecudor.

The discharge of produced water was and is a safe and widespread practice. Texaco did not, as the plaintiffs say, discharge 18 billion gallons of toxic waste into rivers and streams.

As for the spills and actions that took place prior to 1992. Texaco remediated a share of pit and well sites that was comparable to its minority stake in the consortium. The government of Ecuador, Petroecuador and a number of other institutions certified this remediation and absolved Texaco of any further liability.

Petroecuador has yet to remediate the majority of the sites deemed as its responsibility under the 1998 remediation plan with Texaco. Many of the sites that are Petroecuador’s responsibility are pointed to by the plaintiffs. In fact, lead attorney for the plaintiffs Pablo Fajardo was quoted (Ecuadorian Newspapers) calling for Petroecuador to stop their remediation efforts as it was “changing his case” and presumably hurting his pr efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments on my blog Joseph.  Here is a copy of my response:</p>
<p>Texaco operated in line with the standards of the day. Although Texaco was the operator, they were still the minority partner in the consortium. All consortium decisions including system construction decisions were made in conjunction with the majority partner state-run Petroecudor.</p>
<p>The discharge of produced water was and is a safe and widespread practice. Texaco did not, as the plaintiffs say, discharge 18 billion gallons of toxic waste into rivers and streams.</p>
<p>As for the spills and actions that took place prior to 1992. Texaco remediated a share of pit and well sites that was comparable to its minority stake in the consortium. The government of Ecuador, Petroecuador and a number of other institutions certified this remediation and absolved Texaco of any further liability.</p>
<p>Petroecuador has yet to remediate the majority of the sites deemed as its responsibility under the 1998 remediation plan with Texaco. Many of the sites that are Petroecuador’s responsibility are pointed to by the plaintiffs. In fact, lead attorney for the plaintiffs Pablo Fajardo was quoted (Ecuadorian Newspapers) calling for Petroecuador to stop their remediation efforts as it was “changing his case” and presumably hurting his pr efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Mutti</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13127</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Mutti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13127</guid>
		<description>Max,

The Amazon Defense Coalition (which in spite of some bloggers strange notions to the contrary DOES exist by the way - I sat at a desk in its offices in Quito in 2007 and spent time in its Lago Agrio and Coca offices in the Amazon) could not possibly afford yet another lawsuit. 

I repeat that Texaco was sued back in 1993 shortly after it exited Ecuador. At that time Petroecuador had not done the damage it has since done USING TEXACO'S FAULTY INFRASTRUCTURE. This, as I mentioned in your own blog, is the key to the whole Petroecuador issue which Chevron constantly flaps around as a red herring: 

The plaintiffs contend that by passing on a defective drilling system (that, remember, was DELIBERATELY sub-standard to save money), Texaco is equally responsible for all subsequent pollution by Petroecuador.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p>The Amazon Defense Coalition (which in spite of some bloggers strange notions to the contrary DOES exist by the way - I sat at a desk in its offices in Quito in 2007 and spent time in its Lago Agrio and Coca offices in the Amazon) could not possibly afford yet another lawsuit. </p>
<p>I repeat that Texaco was sued back in 1993 shortly after it exited Ecuador. At that time Petroecuador had not done the damage it has since done USING TEXACO&#8217;S FAULTY INFRASTRUCTURE. This, as I mentioned in your own blog, is the key to the whole Petroecuador issue which Chevron constantly flaps around as a red herring: </p>
<p>The plaintiffs contend that by passing on a defective drilling system (that, remember, was DELIBERATELY sub-standard to save money), Texaco is equally responsible for all subsequent pollution by Petroecuador.</p>
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		<title>By: Max German</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13112</link>
		<dc:creator>Max German</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13112</guid>
		<description>James, Nick, Kate, Anna, John, it doesn't matter.  You’re all probably the same paid anti-Chevron activist anyway.  How would we know? As Joseph just said, Petroecuador has been responsible for further poisoning.  Actually try 1,400 spills since 2000 alone.  Why wait so long (17 years) to start a suit against Petroecuador?  Don’t you want to hold them responsible too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, Nick, Kate, Anna, John, it doesn&#8217;t matter.  You’re all probably the same paid anti-Chevron activist anyway.  How would we know? As Joseph just said, Petroecuador has been responsible for further poisoning.  Actually try 1,400 spills since 2000 alone.  Why wait so long (17 years) to start a suit against Petroecuador?  Don’t you want to hold them responsible too?</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13110</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13110</guid>
		<description>@Max: Maybe there will be a case against Petroecuador if this one ever finishes. If you want to sue Petroecuador go right ahead. Private parties don't have to sue everyone who's wronged them all at once, so I'm not sure what point you even think that you're making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Max: Maybe there will be a case against Petroecuador if this one ever finishes. If you want to sue Petroecuador go right ahead. Private parties don&#8217;t have to sue everyone who&#8217;s wronged them all at once, so I&#8217;m not sure what point you even think that you&#8217;re making.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13109</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13109</guid>
		<description>Rebut what? You didn't even make a case; you just cut and paste from a Chevron press release. You can easily Google "Shushufindi 38" and find the plaintiffs' version of the history of that well, which is essentially that everything you quote in the Chevron press release is untrue and this well was built and operated exclusively by Texaco and was never used by Petroecuador, and if you were the slightest bit interested in finding out the truth of the matter you might at least have done that much before writing your drivel.

I also love that in an article entitled "Let the personal attacks continue" your response to me calling you out on a total lack of balance is to call me "another mindless Amazon Defense Coalition follower." You don't know me, and you're already insulting me. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rebut what? You didn&#8217;t even make a case; you just cut and paste from a Chevron press release. You can easily Google &#8220;Shushufindi 38&#8243; and find the plaintiffs&#8217; version of the history of that well, which is essentially that everything you quote in the Chevron press release is untrue and this well was built and operated exclusively by Texaco and was never used by Petroecuador, and if you were the slightest bit interested in finding out the truth of the matter you might at least have done that much before writing your drivel.</p>
<p>I also love that in an article entitled &#8220;Let the personal attacks continue&#8221; your response to me calling you out on a total lack of balance is to call me &#8220;another mindless Amazon Defense Coalition follower.&#8221; You don&#8217;t know me, and you&#8217;re already insulting me. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.</p>
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		<title>By: Max German</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13099</link>
		<dc:creator>Max German</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13099</guid>
		<description>Then why hasn’t another lawsuit been started against Petroecuador?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then why hasn’t another lawsuit been started against Petroecuador?</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Mutti</title>
		<link>http://www.shopfloor.org/2009/10/14/let-the-personal-attacks-continue/#comment-13093</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Mutti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shopfloor.org/?p=10350#comment-13093</guid>
		<description>Carter,

I used to work for the Amazon Defense Coalition in Ecuador. The whole point of the case against Texaco that Chevron inherited was that: 

a) the company DELIBERATELY caused the contamination it did (very different from accidental spills like the Exxon Valdez, however irresponsible). 

b) that the infrastructure passed on to Petroecuador was sub-standard and thus guaranteed continued pollution.

Everyone knows that Petroecuador has been responsible for further poisoning the Ecuadorian Amazon, but the case is against Chevron, not Petroecuador. The initial lawsuit was filed in 1993 for damage specifically caused by Texaco. 

Texaco's "remediation" was to essentially bulldoze over some of the pits, not clean them out and carefully deal with the toxic waste. Such action would never have been allowed in the US and Texaco knew it.

The company chose profit over people and used substandard drilling techniques to accomplish it's goal. The only wealth distributed in Ecuador was to one or two corrupt politicians. 

Oil is big business and the human and environmental rights of disenfranchised rainforest residents is, frankly, anathema to companies such as Chevron - however much its propaganda says it "cares".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carter,</p>
<p>I used to work for the Amazon Defense Coalition in Ecuador. The whole point of the case against Texaco that Chevron inherited was that: </p>
<p>a) the company DELIBERATELY caused the contamination it did (very different from accidental spills like the Exxon Valdez, however irresponsible). </p>
<p>b) that the infrastructure passed on to Petroecuador was sub-standard and thus guaranteed continued pollution.</p>
<p>Everyone knows that Petroecuador has been responsible for further poisoning the Ecuadorian Amazon, but the case is against Chevron, not Petroecuador. The initial lawsuit was filed in 1993 for damage specifically caused by Texaco. </p>
<p>Texaco&#8217;s &#8220;remediation&#8221; was to essentially bulldoze over some of the pits, not clean them out and carefully deal with the toxic waste. Such action would never have been allowed in the US and Texaco knew it.</p>
<p>The company chose profit over people and used substandard drilling techniques to accomplish it&#8217;s goal. The only wealth distributed in Ecuador was to one or two corrupt politicians. </p>
<p>Oil is big business and the human and environmental rights of disenfranchised rainforest residents is, frankly, anathema to companies such as Chevron - however much its propaganda says it &#8220;cares&#8221;.</p>
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